Moms Are One Of The Most Powerful Communities To Lead Us To A Sustainable Future: My Conversation With A Mother And A Grandmother
A few days ago, I sat down with Sarah Trott and Esther Gallagher to talk about how moms and parents can transition to a better consumption model, and how the approach we have designed at UpChoose help them do that.
The podcast is available on Fourth Trimester Podcast website, iTunes and Google Play (Episode 49). The below is a (slightly edited for ease of reading) transcript of the 1-hour discussion.
Hi I’m Sarah Trott and welcome to the fourth trimester podcast. I’m a new mom and this podcast is all about postpartum care for the first few months following birth. The time period also known as the fourth trimester. My postpartum Doula Esther Gallagher is my co host. She’s a mother, grandmother, Perinatal educator, Birth and Postpartum Care Provider. Fourth trimester care, our topic, is about the practical, emotional and social support parents and baby require. And importantly it helps set the tone for the continuing journey of parenting.
Sarah Trott: Hi this is Sarah Trott. Welcome back to the fourth trimester podcast. We have a special guest today Ali El Idrissi who we will introduce in a moment. We have a great topic today: sustainability and preparing for a baby. Ali started a company called UpChoose and we met him at the birth and baby fair here in San Francisco. Esther and I were walking around looking at lots of different things that you know that parents can can opt into: everything from clothes from food to bottles and devices and you know everything under the sun. And we were drawn to Ali because he has a really interesting company and we invited him to be on our program. His company has a mission of accelerating the transition to sustainable consumption. Consumption is a really big deal for new parents and we’ll talk a lot about that. This company is looking to activate households’ role in building a healthier, safer society for all of us. Their first release is Cocoon by UpChoose, a service offering parents a curated set of healthful and eco-friendly baby clothing, at each phase of the baby’s growth. When the baby outgrows a set, parents can opt to resell it and order the next one new or gently loved at a discount from another family. They keep getting beautiful and healthful clothes for their little one while reducing clutter, avoiding unnecessary spending and helping to protect our planet at the same time. Ali is also an active early advisor of leCupboard, a start-up creating a new category of preventative health care through food, and is an advisor to the UK Government on sustainability. Before UpChoose, he helped create and manage the impact investing team at JPMorgan where he helped develop investment structures like GHIF (the world’s first VC fund for HIV and malaria research), the Dementia Discovery Fund (a first of its kind collaborative effort to accelerate Fundamental Research in Dementia) and NatureVest (an investment fund focused on nature protection co-developed with The Nature Conservancy). So Ali thank you so much for honoring us with your presence on our program. We welcome you to the show. Hi.
Ali El Idrissi: Hi thank you, Sarah and Esther. I’m really thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.
Esther Gallagher: Ali, I’m not sure. I think you’re married right?
AEI: No, no I’m not.
EG: Will you marry me? (laughs)
ST: We just had our first podcast proposal! (laughs)
EG: You’re my kind of guy! (laughs)
AEI: I kind of got caught off guard. (laughs)
EG: It’s mostly a joke but…no, I just wanted to chime in and say there were two things at the birth and baby fair that were particularly interesting to me product-wise. I’m not a product person. I try not to have products in my life but yours was certainly amongst the top two.
AEI: Thank you.
EG: Yeah. So and it’s wonderful to hear your business bio as well. I’m very impressed.
AEI: Thank you very much.
ST: Ali, tell me, why parents and why sustainability?
AEI: Yeah so it’s interesting that we talked about some of the projects that I worked on before and it actually came from two perspectives. One is I was working on a number of projects that address the symptoms rather than the roots of some of the challenges we have. Whether we talk about climate change or waste or health issues these issues are related to lifestyle. In many cases, we don’t necessarily — and I think this is going to happen more and more — but we’ve don’t necessarily look as much into the actual root cause and our lifestyle. And a lot of it has to do with consumption. And so, after a while, it was a realization that our lifestyle is causing a lot of these issues. And for sure when it comes to consumption it’s been accelerating very fast in the past few decades and we should look at this in the first place. Then the second reason was really to understand that the way our consumption model is structured today it’s really around quantity and getting more and more stuff. And it’s really working more for the products rather than for the users. And the idea here is to really take a step back and ask ourselves, for a number of situations, what do we actually need? How could we allocate our time and resources in a better way? And so that led us to think about some important moments in our lives when we ask ourselves those questions. And you know of course becoming a parent is one of those very critical moments, and it’s obviously very intuitive that you would care for this new person you bringing into the world. But the data also shows that it’s the moment in our whole adult life when we have the most flexibility around our habits, especially our consumption choices. So if we’re thinking about the future and the next generation, then we might as well start at the very beginning and raise the next generation with the right habits. But also from a more pragmatic perspective, if we want to change things, we should try to do it at the moments where we are the most likely to effect that change.
On sustainability what I would say as an intro remark is that a lot of the time it’s framed as something we have to fix. So, you know, we have all these problems and we have to fix them. And so the way to fix them is to choose better, right? It’s to say, I’m not going to do this; I’m going to do that instead. And for consumers, it translates into buying the right products instead of the bad products. The thinking here is to go one step beyond and say it’s not only about fixing what we have today, it’s realizing that we can evolve our consumption model. And we actually have a lot of margins to design much better services. We have to be bold and start with a blank page, but if we do that — and we’ll talk about about it in more concrete terms — we can end up with better outcomes: high-quality products and without necessarily being significantly more expensive like today where only a happy few category has access. That’s really the mantra behind how we design our services. We’re thinking that in 10–20 years, we will have better ways of doing a lot of these things. Part of it is sustainability, but you know part of it is also that in our life, we want to allocate our time to more essential things than buying stuff. But we have to design for it.
EG: Ali. I wanted to back up and have you perhaps speak very briefly to the point that we Americans and our children, particularly middle and upper-class Americans consume — and I’m sorry I don’t have the statistic in front of me — some enormous proportion of the resources that would otherwise be allocated to maybe more people across the world. It’s some insane percentage of resources that American children consume. Of course, it’s their parents consuming on their behalf. So, I wanted to make that point. I don’t think that American parents know that the amount that they consume on behalf of their children; the two points you’re speaking to is, just the vast quantity that we’re consuming on behalf of our children is driving people around the world into poverty and simultaneously is driving the pollution; that sort of environmental degradation. At the same time. And this is on behalf of our children unwittingly and I don’t think that’s too small a point to make. You know that having to have a diaper genie, which is made of plastic and requires plastic, you know a plastic bag to capture your plastic diapers is such a toxic endeavor that your children, where they have to actually live in the environment where that pollution is accruing, might not survive.
AEI: Absolutely, it’s an extremely important point because that actually comes before asking yourself what to buy. It’s the quantity part. So you might spend a lot of time choosing the right product versus the wrong product. But we have to tackle the point that you mentioned which is: how many things we have? What do we do with them over time? And yes there are some mind-boggling statistics like the fact for example, that 3 percent of the world’s children live in America but they own 40 percent of the toys consumed globally. So there’s this overconsumption that’s concentrated in the U.S. and that’s why one of the really important aspects of the solution is to help consumers take a step back and understand what they actually need for different situations. And that, in my view, is an important value to start with. So even before saying this is organic, we want to be able to tell people, for example when they’re having a baby and need to buy clothes: these are the essentials that you’ll end up using every day; and having two or three times this amount is not going to have any added value apart from creating potentially negative consequences for you like clutter and overspending. And that’s really important to embed into any service that we create. But then the other part is, you mentioned that not many people know. And it’s true and it’s really important that we work towards that knowledge and awareness. But at the same time it’s also — I even want to say sometimes more important — that there is a practical solution that is convenient and cost-effective, where people can choose that because it’s better for them in their daily lives. And then they can learn as they go through that journey. Because oftentimes what happens is you will put the knowledge out there, but still to act on that knowledge, it’s it’s extremely difficult. And that’s where you have that gap between knowing and acting. And now I think we’re at the point in time where a lot of people have a sense that there’s something not quite right. But there’s no clear roadmap.
EG: You know you mentioned the word convenience and how, by creating a model that just sort of steps in front of — in a good way, I might add — all of these sorts of decisions that parents imagine they have to be making about things like baby clothes, how your model addresses those two layers. You know both the decision-making process that parents would be involved in but also sort of the education of those parents in terms of a sustainability model and ecological awareness.
AEI: Yeah absolutely, it’s something that I’ve seen a lot you know, for example, my sister has three young kids and, at some point, it becomes really hard to even find a gift. Or even the parent would ask, please don’t buy anything, I really don’t have space anymore. And that’s one of the things, next to all the research we’ve done, that shows there’s an issue and moms are really overwhelmed with all the products they have around.
EG: Too much stuff!
AEI: Yeah it’s too much stuff and it happens so fast that you don’t have time to master all that. And I think it’s really unfair to think that if you’re a pregnant woman or a mom you’ll be able to master all these things, and so it seems like the general rule is that moms need to figure out everything. And even with all the support system, with all the blogs and forums an expecting mom is somehow supposed to become an expert, navigate all the facts, the trends the ads, the marketing and is still expected to end up picking the right thing all the time. And that’s a very unrealistic expectation. And even if you look only at clothing and how clothing has evolved in the past few decades, you end up with a very long list of categories. And it seems like every time a mom has to recreate that knowledge from scratch. And ask: what do I need? At what stage? How many onesies are enough? How many sleep suits are enough? Have you used burp cloths or have you used washcloths? and on and on and on! Stuff like that gets recreated all the time. That ends up in confusion. You might ask your friends obviously or your family but they too have had to go through the same process. So you have that bias there, and in many if not most cases it ends up in overspending, getting things that you’ll end up not using. And when we really started diving into our first service, Cocoon by UpChoose, the idea was to say, instead of only helping a mom choose the right product, why don’t we actually go for it and design the whole experience? That would be much more valuable. So what we have now with Cocoon is a service where you receive a set of baby clothing and accessories that cover at least 80 percent of what your baby will actually end up using and wearing. You receive all this in one easy set delivered to your door at each phase of your baby’s growth. It’s all curated for the healthiest fabrics for your baby’s skin. 100% organic fabric; no toxic chemicals and ethically-sourced. And then you’re part of a network and when your baby’s ready to go to the next size you can resell your Cocoon set to another family. We organize that and you know you get money back from that. So that reduces the cost for you. It means that you’ll have the right amount which is already a way to reduce the cost in the first place. And, you know, you don’t have to keep something that your baby has outgrown, which saves physical space and mental space. Other families can benefit from it and it becomes more accessible and more convenient for everyone involved. It’s really that idea of making sure that you have the right products and to be honest, the vision here is really to say having something organic should not be something that’s premium; that you should pay more for because what that really means is that you will have to pay two or three times the amount for something because it doesn’t have harmful chemicals. And I don’t think that’s something that we can be content with. That should be a minimum standard. We should not be paying more. It’s not a premium feature to not have bad chemicals in our products. But then really what we organize for is to have more thoughtful behaviors. So things like getting the right amount in the first place, or passing on and reselling at the end of the cycle. If we can do that — and by the way, why wouldn’t you do that since you don’t need those things anymore? — then we can have a much much better outcome: reduce clutter, reduced waste, better spending, and also, obviously, better quality but also better allocation of time. And so that’s really the value proposition here.
EG: I want to I want to add the possibility that this is not just a nice simple straightforward organizing principle for parents, just go online and click on Cocoon byUpChoose and say ok, now we’ve dialed in our baby clothes service. It’s all set up for us. When that time comes we’ll ship stuff back and get a nice new set. But it occurs to me that not only the convenience but frankly potentially, the more reasonable cost of all of this, inasmuch as you’re not going out in the car wasting gas looking for products. You’re not asking five different Amazon prime venues to be shipping you two items each and waisting shipping, in that sense. And those are the sorts of things that accrue without actually watching it accrue right? The credit card bill comes and we pay it. But it occurs to me that if we were to be looking at that cost, and then, of course, you may have done this Ali but I have no idea, but the difference in savings could mean a day of postpartum care for that mom who’s given birth. You know, a visit to a lactation consultant when she’s having difficulty breastfeeding. So to me, part of the value here is actually then having a better margin for the actual care that you will need as new parents. Now I know Ali you’ve never been a new parent but you have a sister who is a new parent and while she was navigating putting diapers on and off her baby, she was also going through a physiological, emotional and social transformation that was huge, and challenging, when she might have needed family and professional support for that. And so, I’m just putting a plug in here. Sarah knows I always find a way to do so.
ST: Yes I know, that’s why we do this.
EG: Yeah I mean frankly, in the fourth trimester, what’s going to be way more important to new parents even though they don’t know it right now is that they’re going to need support and help of a social-emotional and physiological nature and all the fancy baby clothes in the world aren’t going to make a difference and having you know a brand new diaper genie, that’s not going to be the thing that gets them through that. And so I’m sitting here listening to you and talking about your business model and thinking about all the side benefits, which to me are directly related to a service such as this. So I want to appreciate you for that as well.
AEI: I’m really glad that you bring this point because something that drives us very strongly is to reclaim or to redirect resources. And you talk about monetary resources; that’s extremely important. There’s also a time, right? And then once we free up time, it’s important to recognize that as a species there are things we like to do, we’ve always liked to do. And so the point here is not to say, we should not be spending time buying things — it’s something perfectly normal and enjoyable. It’s the excess of it that becomes a problem. And so if we can provide a simple way where people can enjoy choosing very cute, different styles of clothing for their little ones, but then they don’t have to spend the very disproportionate amount of resources, time and money, that we spend today, that frees up both time and money and even mental space. To do those things that are much more essential. It’s exactly like you said, no amount of very cute clothes would replace that. And that’s really where we think there’s not just a side benefit but a deeper effect that happens first by unlocking those time, money and mental resources.
EG: Well it’s a direct benefit if parents actually have more time to sleep when their baby sleeps.
ST: Esther and Ali, I want to share with you a little bit of my experience having recently become a new parent.
ST: Thank you. I have a toddler now — relatively recently. Yeah. So when I became pregnant I was very excited for an abundance of reasons and one of the things I felt excited about was setting up a nursery and buying things. so I’m going to put it out there, that’s probably not too uncommon for new moms to think, I get to decorate and I get to prepare and in the lack of having thoughtful conversations about stuff in general ahead of the experience of becoming pregnant and becoming expecting parents, what fills the gap I think mentally and what creates the framework is marketing. And now I’ll step back and be a little more general, step back away from myself, but in general what I’ve seen and I did experience this was an absolute onslaught of e-mails and invitations to events that are designed to sell me stuff, special store events or special online invitations for buying. Once cookies start picking up that you’re looking at things like cribs online, parents just get bombarded. And I think what’s unfortunate is that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent creating the idea that unless you go buy all of this stuff, you’re not a good parent. And it is so much pressure on people. It puts a lot of pressure on people thinking, oh, if I don’t do this then my baby’s not going to have what they need. And so it’s not really seen as what’s best for the environment or best for my family or best for my house or my baby, it’s more like, well I guess it is: It’s like what is best for my baby is stuff — that’s the main message that comes through. And I really want to counter that for anyone who is listening. Stuff is not necessary for your baby. Some things are helpful for you and your family, and essential. But most of the things that get advertised and marketed, and I would say are designed to just be the moneymaking enterprises and they don’t really care if you have 25 duplicates of things or if they’re not sustainably sourced. It’s just stuff and I want moms to not feel guilty. Please hear me if you’re an expecting parent don’t feel guilty if you don’t have all the stuff. Sure put your registry together for your baby shower. Like our traditions involve buying stuff. Have a party and everyone buys you stuff that’s cool, well put things on your baby list that, I would just ask, are thoughtful and question whether or not you really need it just because like your three friends had one.
EG: Well not only that Sarah, but I would add, think outside the box of the baby. In plenty of cultures this idea of a shower which probably gets called a lot of different things in a lot of different places isn’t about the baby, it’s about the parents. It’s about: you are going through a transformation. We are here for you. Here’s how we’re going to help you. And sadly, in our culture it’s: here’s here’s what we’re going to do to fill up your suburban house, which is already an unsustainable model. So, you know if I could get to every woman in her first trimester at the end of her first trimester, every parent, couple or trio or whatever number of parents are looking to expand their family through adoption et cetera, et cetera, I would be saying, look into what your social-emotional and physiological needs are going to be in the first three months of having a new little human being in your home. Look to those and ask for that. It’s just as valid of a shower gift to give somebody you know a Cocoon subscription and offer to pay for a breastfeeding consultant/ consultation and throw some money in the direction of a postpartum doula and throw some money in the direction of a complete nutritious meals service. Those are the things that people are going to benefit from.
ST: I’m going to add a cleaning service!
EG: Oh absolutely. Somebody to clean your bathroom. Right. Absolutely. Like all of those things. Some of those things are something you can offer to do yourself. You can come over to your friends’ house and clean their house for them. You know, you can come over to your friends’ house and cook a big pot of stew for them. And some of those things are just going to be better done by somebody who really has thoughtfully gone through and organized that. And certainly this little Cocoon option is, it’s very sweet. Very sweet and thoughtful. I mean just very dear. And I just have to say and I’m just so pleased that it’s an uncle who got it together. That’s culture change right there.
AEI: I agree 200 percent with everything you said and it’s that culture of marketing and I think we’re getting at the end of that cycle. We’re still in a way stuck into it. But I think there are people who are ready to embrace other solutions but they need to be real solutions. I think it’s very unfair sometimes: moms go out in the world and it would be extremely difficult to implement alternative solutions. Sometimes moms can implement them when they’re at the peak of their motivation. And that’s something we’ve seen a lot: you’re expecting your baby and then you make all these better decisions and choices and then, three, six months down the road, reality kicks in. Because of budget or because of other reasons, you go back to some of the previous habits. There are really two things we spend an enormous amount of time to try and put at the center of our model. One is what I call a nutrition-led approach which is: if you’re eating empty calories your body and your mind will keep asking for more. You know, please give me more sodas. But if you’re eating the right nutrient-dense food, and you do that from the start, then you have a much higher likelihood to be content. And that’s what we try to do here. If from the start you have that first layer of what you actually need then, you will most likely be content. You already know you have most of what you need. And so that nice outfit that you’re adding you can be fully joyful about it. And you don’t have to go overboard being concerned that maybe you don’t have enough because you already know you started on the right path. And then the second thing is this idea that the goal is not so much to make the right choice one moment but it’s to have a solution that can sustain over time. That’s why it’s important to design programs, not simply products. To be able to make it easier for you to commit and not necessarily depend on your peak motivation. By design, it’s something easy to follow through versus having to depend on that peak motivation and decision and then falling back a few months after, which we’ve seen a lot.
EG: Ali I’m going to ask you a question not because I want it to be a scare tactic but I’m just so curious. So why are some baby clothes so cheap? I mean that’s a temptation right? The marketing says OK, you have to buy all this stuff and then you buy all the stuff but you don’t have very much cash because now you have to buy all these things. So you have to make your money stretch. So the temptation to buy cheap stuff increases and then you have access to all these cheap, you can get really cheap baby clothes — double flash sale 50 percent off — and then they give you coupons and they hound you all the time. How could those clothes be so cheap, when you say toxic like what’s the awful toxic stuff that’s in there? I’m just you know curious.
AEI: Sure. It’s not specific to baby clothing; it’s a general trend over the past 25-30 years. There’s been an explosion in the volume of clothes produced globally. 400 percent more clothes have been produced in the last two decades. And even if you account for more people on earth it’s still an enormous increase in how many clothes we produce, and that’s a shift in the model of producing and buying clothes. You know fast fashion and so forth. And so what happens there is that something has to give. If we have a system where everything becomes disposable and we have an enormous amount of clothes around and they cost very little. They cost very little money for two reasons. One is that production has been moved to developing countries. And we know a lot about you the terrible working conditions, the very low wages and so forth. It relies a lot on cheap labor and also on industrial processes and toxic chemicals and we’ll talk about that.
ST: Ali can we just back up for a second. And say it relies not only on cheap labor. That’s one way to put it. It relies on human rights violations.
ST: OK. So there was a saying for a certain amount of time and I won’t name the company but everyone knows who it is that their products are made for kids, by kids. OK. Nobody just made that up as a slogan. That’s what was happening and still is happening. So I do think that it’s no small thing for parents to actually spend a minute and think about where your children’s clothing will be coming from.
AEI: And it happens in fashion more than in other sectors, actually. It’s an extremely labor-intensive industry and extremely fragmented. So big retailers have hundreds or thousands of suppliers and there’s been for a very long time this narrative of hiding behind the suppliers and shifting the responsibility. But frankly, I think it’s really important to recognize that even if we put knowledge and information out there — and there’s a lot of really great documentaries to watch on on this — it’s important to understand how human psychology and decision making works. It’s not enough to convert a big number of people to stop shopping like that or to really affect their daily lives on the basis of that knowledge.
ST: Like why would I buy one, I don’t know baby sleep sack, that’s like 50 dollars when I could get three for that same price. And I think that’s what’s hard about it. So if we could create the three baby sleep sacks that are high quality and organic and sustainably sourced and not made by people who are being abused then well, great. I think that would make it a lot easier. But it’s really hard to shift away from the just feeling cash-strapped aspect of it.
AEI: Exactly. At the moment what happens is that there are some solutions out there but they’re a small part of the market. For example, you know most baby clothes are made of cotton. Ninety-nine percent of cotton is produced in a conventional way, using a lot of pesticides and harmful chemicals. Less than 1 percent is organic (organic cotton is grown using methods and materials that have a low impact on the environment). Cotton is a crop that uses only 3 to 4 percent of land globally, yet it accounts for 25 percent of the use of pesticides so it’s extremely intensive in pesticides. It’s extremely intensive in the water, as well. Yet organic methods still represent a really small portion. And when you’re a consumer, you’re a mom, you have tons of things to get your head around. But even if you wanted to buy organic it would be hard to find the right price, the style that you like and to just know where to go. I’ll give you a little example; a few months ago I went to a big retailer here, and I ask for baby clothing and so they give me a “100% cotton” item. Then I asked, do you have organic cotton? And they said yes, this is what 100% cotton means (which is untrue, it’s the opposite). That shows you how difficult it is for a consumer when a sales person at the biggest retailer here tells you that “100% cotton” means organic.
EG: And this is not true.
ST: It’s the opposite of organic. It is one of the worst things we do on the planet. It’s a really terrible terrible; pesticides herbicides soil sterilants. I can go on and on and on. And also I want to just put it out there that I’m guilty of this too. Like listeners please don’t feel like we’re judging you; don’t feel bad if you’ve kind of fallen into the same trap as everyone else but I mean I guess what we’re trying to share is that there is an opportunity to make that shift.
AEI: Yeah. And there’s something I want to add to that. And I think it’s again going back to understanding why we behave the way we behave. It’s extremely important not to make people feel guilty and to understand that it’s made extremely difficult, if not impossible, in most cases. But we can design those solutions where we make it easier for people and more enjoyable. Really the message here is those are things that we need to take seriously. It’s important to understand that what we are talking about is an effect that happens across products and over time. When you start to compound that with other things you have around over a long period of time it does have a serious effect. There’s been a lot of really robust studies around that. So yes it’s really important that we set up ourselves to detoxify our environment. It’s no small matter, but at the same time, we have to design those really simple really easy and very enjoyable experiences that can take care of that.
EG: And the phrase baby steps comes to mind.
AEI: Very appropriate.
ST: Ali. I would just like to have you walk us through how to access your product.
AEI: Sure. So you can you can find us on our website, www.upchoose.com This is the website where you’ll find the service. We have a community on Instagram as well. You’ll find us @Cocoonmoms. That’s our community of moms and everyone around moms who are working to make this a reality. It’s all designed so that it takes a couple of minutes on the website. You have a number of options. You can get it for yourself or you can gift that to someone. You can also have your family, your friends, come together and contribute towards on-boarding you into the program. We make it easy for someone to onboard when they’re expecting or after three months or after six months. They can really catch the train at any point in time and then we grow with them. So yes please visit us at www.upchoose.com
ST: And thank you for so generously providing our listeners with a promotions so they can use fourthtrimestercocoon as a coupon word, all one word.
AEI: Yes. That’s great. They have twenty-five dollars off on www.upchoose.com.
ST: Great. Well, thank you so much! Listeners, go check that out and share that with any new and expecting parents in your life. And we’ll share that on our Facebook page and social as well. Ali thank you so much for being a wonderful guest on our program today.
AEI: My pleasure. I’m thrilled. Thank you for inviting me. It went really fast so I really enjoyed it. And please, everyone who’s listening, we’d love to be able to get to know you. You can contact us on our website for any questions. we would be happy to share more about all the research we’ve done. Beyond the solution we provide we want to help people think about that transition and to think joyfully and practically about it. So I’m here for that.
ST: Wonderful. Thanks so much Ali.
AEI: Thank you very much. Have a wonderful day.
ST: You can subscribe to this podcast in order to hear more from us. Thank you for listening everyone and I hope you’ll join us next time on the fourth trimester. The theme music on this podcast was created by Sean Trott. Hear more at www.soundcloud.com/SeanTrott. Special thanks to my true loves my husband Ben daughter Penelope and baby girl Evelyn. Don’t forget to share the fourth trimester podcast with any new and expecting parents. I’m Sarah Trott. Bye for now.